Curse

Avarre · Jun 20, 2008, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Cheating is something that gives you an unfair advantage.

Using broken skills is not cheating, they are openly available.
I'd hesitate to call RMT cheating, gold doesn't make you stronger, even if it is against the rules.

Abusing bugs depends on whether they're accepted or not.

pumpkin pie · Jun 20, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

too bad the community relation isn't in here to see the cheating pictures ey.

Malice Black · Jun 20, 2008, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Cheating is something that gives you an unfair advantage.

Using broken skills is not cheating, they are openly available.
I'd hesitate to call RMT cheating, gold doesn't make you stronger, even if it is against the rules.

RMT is a grey area.

In a game like GW which is advertised as skill over time, RMT offers little advantage. The only real advantage it offers is getting to the high end content quicker.

In a gear based game such as WoW, it certainly is cheating.

Avarre · Jun 20, 2008, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

RMT is a grey area.

In a game like GW which is advertised as skill over time, RMT offers little advantage. The only real advantage it offers is getting to the high end content quicker.

In a gear based game such as WoW, it certainly is cheating.

I agree, for the most part.

zwei2stein · Jun 20, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

RMT is a grey area.

Everything is grey area.

What is cheating really depends on what goals of game are and what its major design element is.

In quest based mud looking up steps to solve quests is indeed cheating. On the other hands, something like Ursan would be completely fair as it would not really break game in meaningfull way. Most of combat is straightfowrward and requiring little skill except knowing when to retreat. "kill x" and wait.

GW is just inverted version: actual quest challenge is not present, we even get arrows and outlined next step. Wiki is hardly cheat, on the other hand most of game is based on combat system so anything that breaks it is kinda cheat.

(BTW: I got banned for "using third party stuff" in one MUD. I figured out that some puzzles were directly ripped from betrayal at krondor game and got txt with them from krondor guide :-). Devs were not amused when hyperlink appeared in all channel. Funny, such stuff would not make anyone raise eyebrow in gw.)

Tirath Eldrahir · Jun 20, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Duplication is cheating, teleporting to new places via guild hall is too^^ well, was.

pumpkin pie · Jun 20, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

what do you mean teleporting to new places via guild hall? do enlighten me thanks

oh, BTW, Is arena net going to do anything about those players in the photo whose obviously violated the Guild Wars Eula?

Thank you for the answer Pleikki and Fril Estelin

Pleikki · Jun 20, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Pumpkin there was glitch that you could teleport places where you never been from Gh.

Maximumraver · Jun 20, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Cheating is something that gives you an unfair advantage.

Using broken skills is not cheating, they are openly available.
I'd hesitate to call RMT cheating, gold doesn't make you stronger, even if it is against the rules.

Abusing bugs depends on whether they're accepted or not.

Noting To Add.
qft.

Fril Estelin · Jun 20, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

what do you mean teleporting to new places via guild hall? do enlighten me thanks

There was at least one glitch to access various zones (Mallyx citadel?) via GH.

Quote:

oh, BTW, Is arena net going to do anything about those players in the photo whose obviously violated the Guild Wars Eula?

Technically, it's not obvious. Read the very good Exploiting Online Games to see the various situations (WoW's EULA has this explicit rule about exploits and their monitoring Watcher that GW does not have I believe)

Of course there can be some pretty interesting stuff in their EULA:

(vii) interfere with or disrupt the Service or servers or networks connected to the Service, or disobey any requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks connected to the Service;

By now, if you've read the whole thread, you should understand that the EULA is not the best place to look for a definition of "fair" and thus "cheating.

Thizzle · Jun 20, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tirath Eldrahir

Duplication is cheating, teleporting to new places via guild hall is too^^ well, was.

I disagree because Anet could prevent that and everything will have a bug somewhere like that. I think that was just explotiing. I think cheating should be when the game deliberately allows the use of a in game menu or certain controller input combination to unlock extras or special abilities.

pumpkin pie · Jun 20, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Thank you for the answers Pleikki and Fril Estelin.

Arena Net should be concern about these exploitations, its very possible illegal farmers are using it to farm, and then sell the stuffs for in game gold and then trade it for real life money.

Personal reason: I hate (notice i say hate, a very strong word) anything that is unfair.

Do something about it arena net. :P~

MStarfire · Jun 20, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Well, looking around the forums lately, apparently "cheating" is using easily-acquired skills offered by the game in such a combination that you can easily obtain what others insist on pulling teeth for.

Golgotha · Jun 21, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Ursan is cheating.

You may dislike the skill, but claiming Ursan is cheating is a gigantic stretch. Enormous stretch. If it were cheating as you say, a player would, at very least, be able to solo a good portion of the game using only the one skill. Or it'd allow them to do things outside of the intended game design and confines. It does neither. Easy button? Sure. Cheating? Not even close.

Channeling_Monk · Jun 21, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Cheating is abusing any game mechanic not meant to be abused. There is no intended way of paying real money for gold, so that's cheating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Ursan is cheating.

So is Searing Flames spike.

MStarfire · Jun 22, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Channeling_Monk

Cheating is abusing any game mechanic not meant to be abused.

That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The mechanics are there and this game is about skill combination and team building, so any way you use those mechanics is justified by the nature of the game.

Just because you don't know how to build a team that stands up to SF spike doesn't mean the other team cheated. Sure, they used a gimmick build and there's really not much honor in it, but that shouldn't be called cheating just so it'll get changed or nerfed and you'll suck less.

You do realize that you're calling all farmers cheaters, since that's all farming really is? It's nothing more than abusing a game mechanic. Abusing game mechanics has been the key to defeating enemy AI since well before GW was created. That's really the only way to win against a computer foe: outsmart its AI. If, over time, a player community begins to understand how that AI works, common strategies to defeat it will emerge. You're calling this cheating, when really it's just an example of adaptive learning. Maybe you have a learning disability because it seems like this is hard for you. You see other people succeeding by utilizing a common success strategy and you (and a very vocal group of others) can't stand it. Given, then, that all mechanics exist to be abused, you'd better shut down GW right now because you're cheating.

The only alternative to a static AI that fails against a common success strategy is for ANet to change the AI. Either make it adaptive (massive coding headache) or alternate it between instance generation. This idea fails when you realize that there are only finite builds of 5 or 8 skills that a monster of a given profession or profession combination can utilize. Not just brute-force skill combination, but builds that make sense and work together in a given attribute spread. So the choice there is very limited in that developers must decide on a set of builds that are chosen for a particular mob when the instance is generated.

What happens then is the player community goes back to research. Each set of randomly-chosen predetermined builds is analyzed and player builds are invented to counter them and farm them. If your monster loads a build you can't counter, just /resign and try again. This will have an impact on farming because maybe people will be /resigning 3 or 4 out of 5 times, but what happens when a particular mob has ALL of its skillsets easily farmable? It's not hard to farm melee mobs, regardless of their builds. So you're back to where you started, only with the added element of "which skillset will they have this time?"

So grow up. Stop calling it cheating when others can run a farming build better than you can. Stop calling it cheating when you get your ass ruined by a Sway group or SF spike. Quit bitching because I farmed Obsidian armor in three days. Stop whining because some are averaging an armbrace every other day and you still can't properly nuke the first group in DoA. You're capable of doing all that yourself, since the mechanics are there. Saying that others should stop playing the game their way because you don't like it is pathetic and hypocritical.

manitoba1073 · Jun 22, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MStarfire

That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The mechanics are there and this game is about skill combination and team building, so any way you use those mechanics is justified by the nature of the game.

Just because you don't know how to build a team that stands up to SF spike doesn't mean the other team cheated. Sure, they used a gimmick build and there's really not much honor in it, but that shouldn't be called cheating just so it'll get changed or nerfed and you'll suck less.

You do realize that you're calling all farmers cheaters, since that's all farming really is? It's nothing more than abusing a game mechanic. Abusing game mechanics has been the key to defeating enemy AI since well before GW was created. That's really the only way to win against a computer foe: outsmart its AI. If, over time, a player community begins to understand how that AI works, common strategies to defeat it will emerge. You're calling this cheating, when really it's just an example of adaptive learning. Maybe you have a learning disability because it seems like this is hard for you. You see other people succeeding by utilizing a common success strategy and you (and a very vocal group of others) can't stand it. Given, then, that all mechanics exist to be abused, you'd better shut down GW right now because you're cheating.

The only alternative to a static AI that fails against a common success strategy is for ANet to change the AI. Either make it adaptive (massive coding headache) or alternate it between instance generation. This idea fails when you realize that there are only finite builds of 5 or 8 skills that a monster of a given profession or profession combination can utilize. Not just brute-force skill combination, but builds that make sense and work together in a given attribute spread. So the choice there is very limited in that developers must decide on a set of builds that are chosen for a particular mob when the instance is generated.

What happens then is the player community goes back to research. Each set of randomly-chosen predetermined builds is analyzed and player builds are invented to counter them and farm them. If your monster loads a build you can't counter, just /resign and try again. This will have an impact on farming because maybe people will be /resigning 3 or 4 out of 5 times, but what happens when a particular mob has ALL of its skillsets easily farmable? It's not hard to farm melee mobs, regardless of their builds. So you're back to where you started, only with the added element of "which skillset will they have this time?"

So grow up. Stop calling it cheating when others can run a farming build better than you can. Stop calling it cheating when you get your ass ruined by a Sway group or SF spike. Quit bitching because I farmed Obsidian armor in three days. Stop whining because some are averaging an armbrace every other day and you still can't properly nuke the first group in DoA. You're capable of doing all that yourself, since the mechanics are there. Saying that others should stop playing the game their way because you don't like it is pathetic and hypocritical.

Well said. Very well said.

Tyla · Jun 22, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MStarfire

That's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The mechanics are there and this game is about skill combination and team building, so any way you use those mechanics is justified by the nature of the game.

Just because you don't know how to build a team that stands up to SF spike doesn't mean the other team cheated. Sure, they used a gimmick build and there's really not much honor in it, but that shouldn't be called cheating just so it'll get changed or nerfed and you'll suck less.

Abusing broken game mechanics isn't cheating?
Some skills are broken in essence, and cheats are actually implimented in alot of games purposely. In this game, they either didn't test it or they cluelessly added it on.

This game was also all about positioning. The mechanic known as "shadowstepping" was against that concept and the usage of shadowsteps gives you an unfair advantage in positioning.

If it wasn't cheating, it wouldn't be known as abusing, but using instead.

By the way:

Quote:

Just because you don't know how to build a team that stands up to SF spike doesn't mean the other team cheated.

There's only one skill in the game that counters an SF spike at it's utmost potential. Yeah, you can split up, but the radius of SF is generally quite wide.

This skill is known as [[xinrae's weapon], which has a recharge of 30 and an energy cost of 25, which is elite and sucks against any other team.

Counters don't stop a build being overpowered, and an SF spike recharges in a measly 2 seconds.

Avarre · Jun 22, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Overpowered is not the same as unfair. Skills are available to everyone in game. Using a broken build is not cheating. It's certainly lame if that's all you do, but anyone is allowed, and able, to do it.

Floski · Jun 22, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Abusing broken game mechanics isn't cheating?

Do you know what cheating means? It means breaking the rules. What rules are you breaking? Oh noes, I'm a human being with the abilities of abstract thought that allow me to come up with great skill combinations. I'm a cheater!

Cheating = Breaking the rules.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's no rule against being "dishonorable." The skills are in the game to be used, in conjunction with any other skill. If Anet feels a mechanic is too powerful they will nerf it. They will not punish players for cheating because they used it.

Now, if a skill doesn't do what it says it will do (think: Signet of Ghostly Might bug) that's cheating. The skill is obviously bugged, using it knowing that is cheating.